Host: Matt Hall

Guest: Caroline Gaynor

Matt Hall (00:02): Oh, yes. This is a new season, season four, so welcome to Take the Long View with Matt Hall. This award-winning podcast reframes the way you think about your money, emotion, and time. The goal? Helping you put the odds of long-term success on your side.

Matt Hall (00:24): If you believe that satisfaction is often found when acting in the service of others, I have got the guest today. Let me say that one more time. If you believe that satisfaction is often found when you are acting in the service of others, I have got the guest today. I heard her speak more than 10 years ago, and her talk just blew me away. And when our paths crossed again recently, I thought, "She needs to be on the podcast." Her name is Caroline Gaynor, and I am so excited to have her here.

Matt Hall (00:55): Caroline is a big-shot, vice president at a fund company called Avantis Investors, and previously she worked at Dimensional Fund Advisors, and that's how our paths crossed. But I really want to have her on with you today to hear her story about how she guides blind athletes to incredible accomplishments. It is really something, and I'm excited to have Caroline join us to share her stories today.

Matt Hall (01:22): But don't take my word for it. Let me bring in a special guest to tell you how great our guest today is going to be. When preparing for the podcast, I forced my daughter to join me in the car to listen to an audio recording of one of Caroline's talks. And Harper, my 14-year-old, who is not easily impressed, said-

Harper (01:42): Dad, this is someone who could change the world.

Matt Hall (01:45): So if you have a middle schooler, you know how tough it is to get their attention and keep their attention, and it's also just as difficult to get a compliment like that out of them. Thanks, Harper. I think you're right. Caroline is doing something really special. Caroline, welcome to Take the Long View.

Caroline Gaynor (02:02): Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Matt Hall (02:06): I'm excited that you're here, and I have been thinking about you for many years, ever since I heard you give an incredible talk. And so I want to skip the financial and investment conversation we may have at some point and dive into your athletic background. You are a badass athlete, and my question is, was this always the case? Is this just who you are?

Caroline Gaynor (02:31): I cannot claim being a badass athlete. What I will claim is that I am pretty persistent, and I have been doing this for a very long time. It wasn't always the case. When I was younger, I was kind of... I was a chubby middle schooler, who had not a ton of talent.

Caroline Gaynor (02:48): And I very much remember when my mindset shifted to it doesn't matter what your natural talent is if you put in the work, and that was when I was going into my junior year of high school. I was on the cross country team, and I had been since freshman year. So freshman year I was in the top seven freshman and sophomores. Sophomore year, I was middle of the pack JV, and I was like, "This isn't very fun to be totally mediocre." So I decided to run every day between the summer of sophomore year and junior year, and I dropped two minutes on a two-and-a-half-mile race and ended up being fast enough to not only train with the Varsity Team, but also be on the Varsity Team. So I think it was really when I was about 16 that I learned the value of hard work and how much that can overcome.

Matt Hall (03:35): Mm-hmm (affirmative). But persistence, I guess, is necessary, if you're going to be an endurance athlete?

Caroline Gaynor (03:40): Oh, yeah.

Matt Hall (03:41): Who inspired you? Or why pursue an endurance sport?

Caroline Gaynor (03:46): Well, my dad was a big endurance athlete, and he was also the type to just continue pushing, even if he wasn't always the best, and he has kind of a similar story, although he ended up at a much higher level than I did. He actually won the World Championships in, I think it was 1974, in the men's lightweight eight. So a pretty spectacular athlete, but he always kind of drilled that into me.

Matt Hall (04:07): Wait, Caroline. I don't even know what that means. What does a lightweight eight mean?

Caroline Gaynor (04:11): He was a rower, an oarsman, and there is lightweight and heavyweight. And he rode in college and then pursued elite rowing after college and ended up making the boat to represent the US, and they won the gold medal.

Matt Hall (04:25): Wow.

Caroline Gaynor (04:25): Pretty incredible. It's completely out of the realm of anything that I have accomplished.

Matt Hall (04:30): Wow. So then how do you get into triathlons? And why triathlons?

Caroline Gaynor (04:37): I'm also going to point to my dad. I remember he did one leg of a triathlon back when I was in probably elementary school. He didn't do the full thing, but that's when I learned what it was. And so one Christmas, I asked for a bike and I remember, I think I was... It was middle, late high school, and I said I wanted to do one, and my family supported me and I wrote my whole training plan and I spent the whole summer. And it was this summer right before senior year of high school that I completed my first Olympic-distance tri.

Caroline Gaynor (05:05): And I even wrote my college entrance essay on what it was like to do this race and to prepare. Now there are a lot of younger people that do it, but back then it wasn't as popular. This was 22 years ago or something like that, and so it really made an impact on me, and thankfully I got into my college of choice, too. So it definitely pushed me towards continuing the endurance path.

Matt Hall (05:26): Wait, what characterizes something as a triathlon? And then what's the difference between a triathlon and Ironman?

Caroline Gaynor (05:34): So a triathlon is a multi-sport event that typically people think of as a swim followed by a bike and then a run. There are a lot of different types now, but when people refer to Ironman, they're speaking... It's really Ironman is a brand, but if you're talking about a full Ironman, that is a very specific distance. So the distances are a 2.4-mile swim, a 112-mile bike, and then a marathon, 26.2 miles of running. And that's all at once, so back-to-back.

Matt Hall (06:02): I just want to say for the record, I have only done a couple of half marathons and I thought, "No, I'm good. That's about all I got." So the idea of running a full marathon after everything else, I just can't imagine, but-

Caroline Gaynor (06:18): Can I object, though, to the only thing? Just because we have a lot of different people listening, and I hear this all of the time, "I only run 5Ks, I only do this." And for me, it's each distance has its own challenges. You go harder when you're doing a half marathon solo than you do in the marathon portion of an Ironman, so I'm just going to say they're all different and not... One is not better than the other.

Matt Hall (06:38): Okay. Okay. Well you're an elite endurance athlete, in my opinion, but that isn't necessarily what blows me away. There is more to this story, and I would like for you to take us to the point where you first tried your shoes on as a guide.

Caroline Gaynor (06:56): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. So, and maybe I should first define what is guiding, because-

Matt Hall (07:01): Yeah. What does that mean? What does it mean to be a guide?

Caroline Gaynor (07:04): So there is a whole category of athletes called para-athletes, so that's anybody with a disability. I specifically serve now as a guide for blind and visually-impaired athletes. I started doing this back in 2008, and at the time, I really didn't understand what that meant.

Caroline Gaynor (07:19): And what I always like to reference, because I think people tend to be more familiar with skiing and blind athletes. So if you have ever been skiing and you have seen two people skiing near each other, one... They usually will have a vest on, and one will say guide and one will say blind, and that is... It's the exact same thing as in triathlon, where the blind athlete just needs somebody to serve as their vision during the race. They are physically doing the entire thing by themselves, but they need someone with them, so that's what guiding a triathlon is.

Caroline Gaynor (07:48): And the first time I ever did that was kind of by accident. In 2008, I was signed up for the New York City Triathlon, and somebody gave me a call and I remember sitting at my first job in finance out of college, and I vividly remember getting this phone call. A friend said, "Hey, there is this visually impaired woman coming into the city from Chicago, and she has been training to do the New York City Tri, but she doesn't have a guide yet. Do you know anyone that can help?" To this day, I'm not sure if they were actually asking me or if they really wanted to know if I knew someone, but I raised my hand and was like, "Well, I am already signed up, I have done this race," and so that was how I fell into guiding.

Caroline Gaynor (08:24): And what it means to be a guide is in a race, you are, step by step, every inch of the race, you're with the visually impaired person. In the swim, you're going to be tethered either around the waist or around the thigh with a bungee cord so that you're... Again, you're attached to the person. So I don't ever want to be ahead of the person I'm guiding because they are the one setting the pace. On the bike, you're riding a tandem, so the pilot is in the front of the bike, but you're both putting out effort. And then on the run, you're tethered again. So you're going to be wrist or waist tether, whatever the preference is, and you're calling out obstacles along the way. But it's from start to finish, the guide is with the person who is racing.

Matt Hall (09:00): And when you think back on that original experience, what memories come to mind?

Caroline Gaynor (09:06): The mindset shift. So this was the New York City Tri, which I had done, I guess, maybe four or five times, and it's a completely different experience. When you are racing as a guide, it is no longer about your performance, your finishing time. Of course, that matters because you don't want to let the person down, but it... I remember walking from the transition area to the start of this race, Kim was holding onto my shoulder, and it was just like, "This is a different race for me now," and your priorities change. And honestly, it's a lot more meaningful, so that's what I remember vividly about that first experience, is I really prefer this.

Matt Hall (09:43): Mm-hmm (affirmative). It feels like a kind of intimate experience, and yet you don't... I don't think you know, at least in this case, you didn't know the person.

Caroline Gaynor (09:51): That's been the case several times, and I'm very lucky that I really enjoy people because I think that's been a real benefit, that I want to get to know people, but it is very, very intimate. And imagine when you're suffering through something, you really want to read the person you're with, because I have been in races or been running with somebody and they're having a really bad time, and then you're feeling pretty great. And whoever is feeling bad will that much worse, so you have to understand the emotional, physical, verbal cues from the person you're with so that you're not doing things that will upset their energy in a way.

Matt Hall (10:25): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, but how do you read that? You're in the middle of doing some hardcore exercise. How do you sense that or feel that?

Caroline Gaynor (10:35): Well, that's when it's really just getting to know the person. I think spending the time upfront, if it's somebody that you don't know that well, and just learning what they prefer. And then, number-one thing is developing trust because the person has to understand that they can let you know what they need, that they're not going to offend you. You are there for them.

Caroline Gaynor (10:53): But then also on the flip side, as a guide, I need to be able to say what I need to say to the person I'm with. And the really good guiding relationships, and I think this goes for just about any relationship really, is the ones where you can be yourself and ask for what you need, and that's a harder thing than it sounds like.

Matt Hall (11:10): Yeah. So how many triathlons have you done, and then how many times have you served as a guide?

Caroline Gaynor (11:18): I used to have a spreadsheet. So I have been doing triathlons since 2001. I raced solo for, I guess, seven years. I probably did 30 triathlons then. And then I have lost count of how many I have guided. Again, probably 30, 40. A lot of them required travel, so it's not like I'm doing high volume. But the thing that I enjoy the most is guiding Ironmans, and I have now guided 10 full Ironmans, which is that distance that we talked about earlier, and the first time I did that was in 2010. So it's been, I guess... I can't believe it's 2022. Yeah. So about 12 years, I have been guiding full Ironmans.

Matt Hall (11:52): Okay. Well, before we dive into a couple Ironman stories, are you just in perpetual training? Are you just forever training for the next thing?

Caroline Gaynor (12:02): That used to be a joke, because the first Ironman I guided, I wasn't training to do an Ironman when I agreed to help. So, yeah. I would say that for many years, I really did try to stay in... I could just go out and ride 112 miles and not have a problem with it. That is probably less the case now. Just I have a toddler and a job that's pretty demanding, so I typically will agree to guide with lots of notice. But, yeah. For, I would say probably seven or eight years, I tried to be fit enough at any time. Not that I would perform at my best, but that I could complete it, should anybody need help.

Matt Hall (12:36): Okay. So take us to an experience and what it feels like to be tethered to someone and be taking on an Ironman, and walk us through some of what it feels like. What does it feel like when you are starting the race, about to jump into the water together?

Caroline Gaynor (12:58): I mean, that's always the hardest part, actually, is just before the start, because you're like, "What have I gotten myself into? I don't know if I want to be doing this."

Matt Hall (13:07): Do you sleep well the night before, or are you so... Do you get amped up for these things?

Caroline Gaynor (13:11): I would say amped up, and the good thing is the night before doesn't matter that much. What matters is getting sleep in the weeks leading up to it. You definitely want to be well-rested, but the night before, yeah. You're not going to get a full night's sleep. There is no way.

Caroline Gaynor (13:24): And I think my nerves before a race kind of depends on the mindset of the athlete I'm with. So if there is somebody who has got high levels of anxiety or if there is some sort of obstacle in the swim. Like the most recent one that I guided, we were both nervous because there was an absurd amount of jellyfish in the water. I mean, I'm talking disgusting levels of jellyfish, and we knew what we were getting into. It's like you're walking into something painful, so that was probably the most difficult swim to start. But even though I'm there guiding, it definitely is like I don't ever want to let anyone down, and so it's pretty scary to start one of those races. You just never know what will happen.

Matt Hall (14:01): I have never witnessed a triathlon in person, but it just appears to me when I... Maybe it's just in my imagination, that thousands of people are jumping in the water and banging into each other. And it doesn't feel, to me at least in my head, organized. It feels like chaos, so how do you handle... You're tethered to someone and you have to, in some ways, protect them, I think?

Caroline Gaynor (14:22): Yeah.

Matt Hall (14:23): How does this work?

Caroline Gaynor (14:24): I would say the first race where I really understood how difficult it would be to guide that, was the very first Ironman I guided. Because I had done one Ironman solo and it had been about five years, but it's a very different thing when you are guiding a visually impaired person because in Ironman races, historically, they were a mass-start race, which means you're not starting in different corrals where you have got five to 10 minutes between the event, or between each group of people. In an Ironman race, usually all the competitors start at once. But one accommodation they make for para-athletes, so again, anyone with a disability, is they would let them start 10 minutes ahead. And at the time, so this was Ironman Class of 2010.

Caroline Gaynor (15:01): At the time, that seemed like a great thing because the athlete I was racing with and I could get our groove, we could start swimming very calmly, peacefully, and get a rhythm of going. And I remember about five minutes into this 2.4-mile swim, I looked back and saw this mass of 2000 men and women, all super-fit, getting ready to swim at us. It almost felt like they were coming to attack us, swam at us as fast as they could. And that was when it really hit home, what this was going to be like.

Caroline Gaynor (15:29): And so I will tell you, I felt the water coming towards us before the athletes even got there. And so Patricia is the woman I was racing with, and she is a very strong swimmer, incredible athlete, but this was her first Ironman, and she was a little bit nervous, so she had her head out of the water, which makes it even more difficult. So I remember that when the athletes started coming, I got into sort of defense mode, to your point. And I was putting my hand out and grabbing people's foreheads and kind of sticking my foot out because when you're tethered, the last thing you want is for someone to swim between you and to grab the tether and pull it off, which is absolutely something that can happen. So it felt like a battlefield, and I was a water polo player in high school, and it was one of the only times, I think, water polo skills are practical in real-world situations.

Matt Hall (16:17): Yeah, because aren't there a lot of hijinks going on underneath the water in water polo?

Caroline Gaynor (16:21): Oh, yeah.

Matt Hall (16:21): It feels like people are pulling one another under. I don't know much about it, but it looks rough to me.

Caroline Gaynor (16:25): It's like a full-contact sport. I always liked it because it was one of the only contact sports for women.

Matt Hall (16:30): It sounds like it prepared you well for the swim of the triathlon. Okay. So then on the bike, I like how earlier you said, "I could just ride 100 miles with no problem," and most of us... I have never ridden a bike 100 miles. And in this day and age where lots of people I know have bikes at home, I don't think most people could ride or have tried to ride 100 miles. What's it like to be the guide on a tandem bike? I have never been on a tandem bike, and I have heard you say that it's harder than maybe it appears.

Caroline Gaynor (17:03): Ugh. And I'm going to go back to that first race that I guided in the New York City Triathlon of 2008, because I didn't understand how much more difficult it would be. I agreed to guide this race one week before the event, and I had done one ride on a tandem bike, and that was one loop of Central Park with a sighted man on the back. And I think I was just pretty naive expecting that when Kim and I got to this race, we would be able to just get up and start. But even though we had talked about every single thing we were planning to do, even to the effect of put one leg over, put one leg in the pedal, one, two, three, go, it was not working.

Caroline Gaynor (17:37): It's almost like, especially the more nervous you are, the more the bike feels, so the front end of this bike was shaking back and forth. We couldn't even get up the momentum to get started. So when I talk about the responsibility of being a guide, not wanting your performance to affect the person you're with, I really didn't know how to overcome this. We had to stop and almost rethink everything, and I just went back to all the cycling coaches I had ever had. I went back to physics lessons. How do we get up enough momentum so that the bike can keep moving? And so what I did was I said, "All right, Kim, I want you to pretend that the handlebars aren't there," because I figured that either she was nervous or I was nervous or we both were, and that was really transferring our energy to the bike, because I was sure we were going to crash. But when she pretended that the handlebars weren't there, we were able to get up enough momentum to do that.

Caroline Gaynor (18:27): And I do want to share one more story because there is a really interesting thing that happened... Well, terrifying thing that happened. The next year, I did the same race with Kim, and we rode a different bike and the seat broke. So there was a clamp that allowed my saddle to go up and down, and her handlebars were connected to it, and it snapped off and broke about three miles into the bike. And we were able to flag down a mechanic and we got some electrical tape to wrap around it, and I have a photo of all the electrical tape we used.

Caroline Gaynor (18:57): But what that meant was my seat was slammed down to the bottom and it was essentially floating. So there were a couple of U-turns on the race and the handlebars would turn to the right. So the lesson that we learned from that very first race, I mean, we... I don't know how we actually did the bike ride that next year, but her learning how to use her core and try to avoid touching the handlebars as much as possible, is the only way we finish the race the next year. I don't recommend riding a bike that way, I'll tell you that.

Matt Hall (19:26): I remember hearing you also had to MacGyver some type of new tether one time, when you either lost or broke another tether?

Caroline Gaynor (19:32): Yes. One of the lessons I have learned from guiding and just triathlons in general, is that something always goes wrong. So it can be something major or something minor, but just be prepared for that and know that it's okay and you can overcome it if you're not too rigid.

Caroline Gaynor (19:45): So the very first Ironman, where I was just talking about that crazy swim, we had actually forgotten our tether that morning. And Patricia is, she is an engineer, she is an actual genius, I'm sure, and she didn't get flustered by the fact that we had forgotten this tether that she was so accustomed to using. And she told me, "All right, let's go find a bike mechanic," and we ended up asking this bike mechanic for two inner tubes, and I was like, "For what?" And she tied them together, and we created a tether out of bike tubes, and that's how we did the Ironman swim in that very first race, which is just wild to think about.

Caroline Gaynor (20:19): But it's one of those we could have just stopped the day then. We might not even have started the race, but it's so important to think about what's your ultimate goal? What are you trying to do? Is there a way to get to the start line? Is there a way to get to the finish line? And if there is some sort of a solution, you have to go for it.

Matt Hall (20:36): What would you like to tell people about the blind community? Because I must admit, I don't have a friend who is visually impaired. I don't know anyone who is blind. What do you think is misunderstood about the blind community?

Caroline Gaynor (20:53): I appreciate that question. And I want to state that in no way am I speaking for the blind community, but as a person who is privileged enough to get to tell stories about what it's like to guide, I think it's absolutely my responsibility to share how impressive, accomplished, capable, and normal, all of these amazing friends that I have now that are blind are, because the blind population is underemployed. And I think a lot of people have an idea that if they can't imagine how a blind person accomplishes something, it's something that can't be accomplished.

Caroline Gaynor (21:22): And that's just not the case. So again, Patricia who I did the Ironman with, she is an engineer at Facebook now. I have multiple friends that are attorneys. One of my other friends runs one of the largest vanilla extract companies in the world. I say all of these things because it's important to know that blind people are just like you and me, and they have ways to accomplish all the things that we do, and they're just dynamic, interesting, wonderful people. And so just don't assume what someone can accomplish based on whether they can see or not.

Matt Hall (21:50): Yeah. I have heard you say that there is something every triathlete or every endurance athlete who pursues triathlons at the highest level, there is something you all want to hear, and it was the greatest moment is what?

Caroline Gaynor (22:05): So when it comes to Ironman triathlon, it's this crazy event, right? Where you have trained for six, seven, eight months, you have put in hours of training. It's very selfish. You're away from your family, you're away from your friends. And I mean, the fastest people that do an Ironman, the pros, are going eight-something hours, sometimes faster, but often an Ironman will take you 15, 16, 17 hours.

Caroline Gaynor (22:29): And there is this incredible announcer at the finish line of all these Ironmans, and the one phrase that I think every single person who signs up for an Ironman wants to hear is to have the announcer say, "Caroline, you are an Ironman." Although when I'm guiding, again, I would not expect my name to be called. I wouldn't want my name to be called, but there is nothing better than hearing the name of the athlete that you're with, "You are an Ironman." I mean, it brings chills to me even now just thinking about it.

Matt Hall (22:56): You made an important point that I want to highlight, is when you're a guide, none of your times or participation counts, right? You're sort of, in some ways, I guess, invisible to the record book?

Caroline Gaynor (23:08): I think a guide should be, and it's interesting. When I first started, I mean, I didn't even have to sign a waiver, which is a real problem, I think, for those races, but racing has come a long way and it's much more common now. But, yeah. When I am signed up as a guide, my results don't go into the age group. Nowadays, I will have a chip and a tracker, but it's as part of the team for this blind person that I'm racing with.

Caroline Gaynor (23:29): But, yeah. Your results don't count for the record book, or at least they shouldn't. You're there as an accommodation, so... Oh, another thing I should probably say is when you're racing as a guide, you shouldn't have to pay for the race entry. The reason I say you shouldn't have to is because if you are expecting a blind person to pay for their own race entry, and then they have to find a guide, and then if there was an additional barrier, meaning that the guide has to pay for their own race entry, that just makes it even harder. So having a guide for a blind or visually impaired person is a reasonable accommodation in order to race. It's you have got to let wheelchair athletes race in their racing chair, blind people need a guide. So that's how I think of my role in this, is I'm just there to help them get to the finish line.

Matt Hall (24:10): Okay. Let's jump back, though, to the emotional ending, where someone says your name and then, "You are an Ironman." I'm thinking that that's the pinnacle, and I'm imagining tears and tons of emotion coming out from both you and the other party, both for having finished the race, but hearing their name called in that way. And it makes me want to ask you, if you're with someone for somewhere between nine hours and 17 hours, do you laugh and cry and argue throughout the race? What's the tension like throughout this time together? Because I can't believe it's all just jokes and smiles for the whole thing.

Caroline Gaynor (24:55): Oh, it absolutely isn't. It really depends on how both of us are feeling. And then again, there is no better way to get to know somebody really, really well than to be tethered to them for an entire day. So my hope always when I am guiding one of these, is that I'll feel good the whole way. So I want to make sure that whoever I am racing with, that I am stronger than they are when they're having their best performance and I'm having my worst. That doesn't always happen, but ideally I can control my emotions and I feel okay and all of that stuff, but there are definitely times when I am not feeling good, and it's really stressful. But I have had arguments during Ironmans-

Matt Hall (25:32): Yeah, tell us about that. What's been a low a point or a tough argument you have had during a race?

Caroline Gaynor (25:39): Yeah. I won't point to an argument, but I want to point to me having a bad day because I think so many people hear these stories and they're like, "Oh, wow. You have done a these great things, and you must be infallible," and that's absolutely not the case. And I think about when I guided the Ironman World Championship in 2017, and I was racing with this awesome person, [Helen Webb 00:25:59], who she is a mom, she has got a PhD in biochemistry, she is just a superhuman, but she had struggled a bit of on the bike. She had overheated because she has albinism, and the sun was just really affecting her. And so I put out, I think, too much energy on the bike to get us to that bike finish line.

Caroline Gaynor (26:16): And so when we started the run, I was honestly terrified that I wouldn't be able to complete the marathon, and I was really, really scared, and she had recovered a bit. She was starting to feel good again. And so we're a couple miles into this race, we're running the big Island of Hawaii. It was 90 degrees, and there is heat from the outside, there is heat radiating up from the ground. It was just brutal, and she had said to me... Before we started the race, she had said, "Look, if you ever need me to be quiet or tone it down or anything like that, just tell me."

Caroline Gaynor (26:46): And she gave me permission to ask her for quiet, to ask her for anything I needed, and I knew that I could do that without her being worried that I wouldn't be able to race, without her being worried or offended. And so I was like, "Helen, I'm not feeling amazing. Can we just run in silence for a little while?" And that was so helpful for me to be able to focus on my stride, to focus on regaining my energy, and after a few miles, I felt much, much better. But I really do wonder what would have happened if I hadn't been able to trust her and ask for that, because as a guide especially, it's really scary to feel like you might be the weak link, but it can happen. And when you go into one of these events, you have to know that.

Matt Hall (27:23): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Caroline, when has taking a long view really paid off for you? When you have been patient and disciplined and the outcome has been worth the wait?

Caroline Gaynor (27:35): The best example of where I have taken a long view would certainly be the... I want to say it was the second Ironman I guided. This was in Arizona in 2011. I think I had hypothermia on the swim, and then we were able to finish the bike, but by the time we got to the run, my legs were cramping so badly that I ended up having to sort of tap out and say we need to get some other people to step in and guide. So this was mile 13 on the run, and this was absolutely devastating. I was in a terrible point in my personal life, and to add this failure, what I saw as a failure on top of that, was just crushing.

Caroline Gaynor (28:10): And so I reference that because that was me taking the long view because I continued to guide after that, and I think that it would have been really easy to say I failed, I'm not good at this, I'm not worth it. They could find someone better than me. But if I had quit after that, my life would have taken a completely different course, so I think that pushing through failure... And now I don't even see it as a failure. I think it was the right call because I might have fallen over and pulled my athlete down with me. There were a lot of things that could have happened, but I am so glad that instead of using that to determine my worth as a guide, I continued to do it and it could completely has changed my life.

Matt Hall (28:46): Okay. So if I am doing something for 16 to 18 hours, what are the tricks that you guys have to fuel yourself? What does one eat? What does one drink? Is there any sort of magic bullet that helps you sort of catch another wave or get yourself in a stronger position?

Caroline Gaynor (29:10): What does one eat or what do I eat? Because those are very different questions. I have very strange habits because, for me, I think I require more calories than most people do. And my favorite thing to eat, especially on the bike, is salt and vinegar potato chips. I know that sounds really strange to most people, but imagine you're on the bike for between six and eight hours in an Ironman, you need to get in a ton of calories because you're less likely to be able to consume solid food while you're running. So I bring peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, I like fruit snacks, and salt and vinegar potato chips, there is something about... They're easy to digest for me, they add a little bit of sodium, and that's one of my favorite things to pack when I'm doing a really long bike ride.

Matt Hall (29:51): So you're riding the bike and you just pull these things out of what? A little picnic basket attached to the bike?

Caroline Gaynor (29:57): I know. No - I mean, that would be helpful. Jerseys tend to have pockets, so I'll try to shove them in pockets. I will say, though, the volume of chips is much more difficult and then you'll put... Sometimes you will have a thing called a bento box on the front of the bike, and you can just shove it in there. And then the halfway point of most Ironman has a thing called special needs, where you can fill a bag with things you might want, and you can pull over and get the food that you want. Lately, I have been trying to not do that, because it just wastes time, but there are different ways to get food that you want in an Ironman. But, yeah. It's a little annoying to stuff that into a Jersey pocket.

Matt Hall (30:31): Speaking of jerseys, I have noticed in all the photos I have seen of you, that you and your partner always look very cool. Where do you get these flashy outfits you seem to always have?

Caroline Gaynor (30:41): I do like matching. I will say it's fun to wear the same outfit as the person you're racing with. It depends. There are a bunch of companies that will do custom kits. When Helen and I did the Ironman World Championship, we got a company to put the logo of several organizations that had supported us, like Dare to Try and Challenged Athletes Foundation, which are groups that help para-athletes.

Caroline Gaynor (31:01): But the thing I loved about those kits were that Helen had the South African flag on the sleeve of her Jersey, and I had the American flag because we were representing two different countries. And that was really fun to just show the world that we were two people that had come together from literally across the globe to compete in probably the hardest Ironman triathlon out there, and that was really, really fun.

Matt Hall (31:23): Hmm. You had said to me that one of the things you want people to take away from your experience is that we can all do more than we're capable of. Why do you think most people limit their own possibilities?

Caroline Gaynor (31:41): I think it's really easy to assume you can't do something, and the other thing is it takes so much work sometimes to get to a destination. I could probably run a whole lot faster than I can right now. I know I could. But the amount of work it would take to get there can seem really daunting. So I think what that comes down to is choosing a big, scary goal, choosing something you want to accomplish, and then actually focusing... Instead of always focusing on that end goal, focusing on the little tiny steps to get there.

Caroline Gaynor (32:11): It's so easy to give up if you are only thinking about that end goal, when really what's important is to focus on doing the work in small increments every single day to get there. And then more than anything, if you ever slip up, if you take a week off of training or if you... Whatever you're trying to accomplish, stop dwelling on your perceived failures. I think that's one of my biggest things that I'm trying to work on in my life, is don't worry about what you didn't do or what you could have done better. If you are always reflecting on that, moving forward is just that much harder.

Matt Hall (32:43): You also told me that doing for others is both selfless and selfish.

Caroline Gaynor (32:49): 100%. I don't think of anything that I have done in the guiding world as selfless because I would argue I have gotten more from guiding than the women that I have raced with have from me guiding them. They're just out there to do a race, and for me, I'm like, "I cannot believe that I get to do these events with people that I consider awesome friends," and it makes me not even... I do some races alone, not usually Ironmans, but there is... It's just there is a reason-

Matt Hall (33:16): It's not the same.

Caroline Gaynor (33:17): ... I keep doing it. Yeah. It's not the same. It's so much better to share experiences, and I think we all know that people with families, sharing things with others is just a more... It's a more meaningful way to do things. And so for me, I get to share... I love racing. I have always loved racing, and I get to share that with other people, so to me, that's very selfish, and not in a bad way. I don't think there is anything wrong with knowing that it's selfish.

Matt Hall (33:39): Yeah. You also said that there is something therapeutic about it too, that it can help pull you out of a dark place, that helping someone else can do that for you.

Caroline Gaynor (33:49): I think that goes for anything where you are giving to others, but absolutely. I mean, I had a lot of ups and downs. Between 2008 and now, I have had many dips in my life, especially in my 20s, but the one kind constant was guiding. And without a doubt, continuing to race as a guide pulled me out of some really dark places, and I would imagine that for anyone else who is struggling, finding some way to volunteer, finding a way to give back, it just... It's something that can really take you out of what you're experiencing in your personal life. It can help you start to take the steps necessary to get back to sort of a more even state, so I encourage anybody who is struggling to pursue ways to volunteer and give back.

Matt Hall (34:30): A couple more things. Will you guide for the rest of your life?

Caroline Gaynor (34:34): I hope so. If I'm lucky enough, I will. I hope so.

Matt Hall (34:37): You didn't say this earlier, I don't think, but just for the record, you are the first female guide to help a blind person complete an Ironman?

Caroline Gaynor (34:48): As far as I know, that is the case. There is no official record book, but that was part of why Patricia wanted to do it.

Matt Hall (34:54): There is a record book, Caroline. I have it, I saw it. [crosstalk 00:34:57].

Caroline Gaynor (34:57): Yeah, well that was Patricia's goal, is she wanted to do... She wanted to be the first blind and woman to do an Ironman with a female guide, and she hadn't chosen me. She had chosen a friend nearby where she lived in Seattle at the time, and five weeks out, her guide got hurt and somebody connected us online. So I was lucky enough to be a sub, which it seems like I'm pretty frequently a sub, but that's okay. But, yeah. I believe that that's the case.

Matt Hall (35:23): When I heard you give a talk maybe seven years ago, you worked for a company called Dimensional, and now you work for Avantis, and Avantis is a company that is connected to American Century, which is based in Kansas City. I'm based in St. Louis, and most people... If you're in the Midwest and you pay attention to investment companies, American Century has a cool connection through their foundation that I think does cancer research. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Caroline Gaynor (35:52): Absolutely. So first of all, I absolutely loved my role at Dimensional because I get to who work closely with advisors, and that's something I continue to do with my job at Avantis. But one of the things that drew me to Avantis was the connection to American Century because the founder of American Century, a guy named Jim Stowers, when he was getting ready to retire, instead of just transferring wealth to his children or things like that, he signed Warren Buffet's Giving Pledge.

Caroline Gaynor (36:17): And so what he did, was he donated all of his shares to create the Stowers Institute for Medical Research, so the majority owner of American Century is this medical nonprofit, and so our dividends help fund research for cancer and gene-based diseases. And to me, that matters. And I'm not saying that every company should do something like that, but it was a really unique way to solve succession planning and then also give back in perpetuity, so that makes me feel really good about coming to work every day.

Matt Hall (36:45): That's so cool. You know one thing we didn't touch on? The movie and the Race Across America story.

Caroline Gaynor (36:51): Oh, yeah. In 2018, I was part of the first team of blind athletes to do Race Across America, with... Blind athletes with sighted guides, so it was a team of four tandems with blind stokers and sighted pilots, and this is a 3000-mile race from Oceanside to Annapolis, and we had a documentary crew follow us.

Caroline Gaynor (37:07): And the purpose of this filming a documentary was to change the perception of what blind people can accomplish, so everyone on this team was an accomplished professional. So the guy that I referenced, who owns one of the largest vanilla extract companies, he was on the team. The documentary should be coming out this year, and the team name was [Team Sea to See 00:37:27]. So it will be interesting to see, but I would definitely encourage people to watch it, if they encounter it.

Matt Hall (37:33): And it's basically all day and all night?

Caroline Gaynor (37:37): Yes. It is all day and all night. At least one bike is riding at all times, and so when one team finishes a shift, they ride up and then the other team takes off, so it's like wheels overlap, so it is a continuous ride. So that's why it's a very expensive and labor-intensive undertaking, because you have got van drivers, you have got RVs for people to sleep in when you're not riding, you have got a whole crew that's cooking, you have got mechanics.

Caroline Gaynor (38:03): I mean, it's a real event, and it is 100% a life-changing experience. It is also very expensive, and I am very fortunate that I have gotten to do this race a couple of times, but doing it as a pilot was a... That was a completely different thing because piloting a tandem when you're sleep-deprived is extra hard.

Matt Hall (38:18): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Wow. Okay. Well, I don't know what you're going to do next, but it feels like you have done plenty. It feels like you're good for a while. Race Across America, I mean, that is incredible. Would you do it again?

Caroline Gaynor (38:33): Oh, in a heartbeat.

Matt Hall (38:35): You would? Oh my gosh. I bet I have a friend or two who will hear this podcast and think, "I wonder if Caroline would help me train for a marathon?" Have you ever been asked by people who are not in the blind community to help them train or accomplish an Ironman or a triathlon?

Caroline Gaynor (38:54): I think I have written a couple training plans in my life, but I'm not a coach, and I have tons of respect for coaches and I always hire a coach. And to go back to even financial advisors, even if I know how to manage my own money, I absolutely want to have a financial advisor because I need an objective third party to help me with my life situation, and I think the same thing goes for training.

Caroline Gaynor (39:17): So I don't coach myself. I hire a coach, and because I'm not a professional coach, I have not coached people, but I am always happy to recommend coaches because I think that that's another great way, if you're trying to get started, is to have somebody to hold you accountable, to make sure that you have that plan. And they'll help you even when you have lulls in your training, to continue to move forward. So I am a big fan of hiring professionals who really know what they're doing.

Matt Hall (39:42): I have so much respect for you, and I love your story. I love that you took what is, as you said, a somewhat selfish sport. It takes so much time developing yourself, working on your swim, your bike, your run. You took that and have morphed it into something where you're really helping other people accomplish their own dreams, and I think it's instructive and challenges. I'll say, just for myself, it makes me think about how I could do something similar, so I really appreciate you sharing a bit of your story. If people want to learn more about you or about your story, where should they go?

Caroline Gaynor (40:22): I have a website that I update infrequently, and it's [Carolinebikes.com 00:40:25], C-A-R-O-L-I-N-E, bikes.com. I'm also on Twitter, same handle. People can feel free to reach out in any way. I'm always happy to point people in the right direction when it comes to guiding. It shouldn't be too hard to find me if you Google me, too. So if anyone is interested, please don't hesitate to reach out, and I do hope people take something from this, and I love the idea of kind of doing more. But again, I have to reiterate how lucky I am and how much I have gotten from doing this, and it far outweighs what I have given.

Matt Hall (40:54): Thank you for that. That was great. All right, Caroline. Well, I so enjoyed having you on. Thanks for doing this.

Caroline Gaynor (41:00): This is the most fun podcast I have done, so I really love it.

Matt Hall (41:03): Wow. What a compliment, what a story, and what a great episode. I hope you're as inspired as I am. If you were to guide another person, where and how would you do it? Please note the information shared in this podcast is not intended as advice. The intent is to share meaningful experiences. I am likely not your advisor, nor wealth manager, nor financial planner, and my opinions are my own and not necessarily shared by Hill Investment Group. Investing involves risk. Consult a professional before implementing an investment strategy. Thank you.